Mr. Matthews: Let's go to Governor Romney. Your difference with Mayor Giuliani on tax cutting?
Mr. Romney: Well, we both agree with the need to cut taxes and have fought to do so. And I did so in my state, too.
We both believe in cutting back on spending as well.
But if you want to cut taxes, you're going to have to cut spending. And the best tool that a governor has and the best tool the president has had is a line item veto.
And Mayor Giuliani took the line item veto that the president had all the way to the Supreme Court and took it away from the president of the United States. I think that was a mistake.
He also fought to keep the commuter tax, which was a very substantial tax, a almost $400 million tax on commuters coming into New York.
And when it's all said and done, if you're a New York taxpayer, city taxpayer, your state and city tax combined can reach as high as 10%. And in our state, if you're a Boston worker, it's going to be more like 5.3%.
So we both worked real hard to get the taxes down, to get the spending down. But I'm in favor of the line item veto. I exercised it 844 times. Thank heavens we had the line item veto. And I'd like it at the federal government level as well. We need it.
Mr. Matthews: Mayor Giuliani, respond.
Mr. Giuliani: I mean, the difference is that under Governor Romney, spending went up in Massachusetts, per capita, by 8%. Under me, spending went down by 7%.
The line item veto was unconstitutional. I took Bill Clinton to the Supreme Court and beat Bill Clinton. It's unconstitutional. What the heck can you do about that, if you're a strict constructionist?
And, finally, the point is that you've got to control taxes. But I did it; he didn't.
I controlled taxes. I brought taxes down by 17%. Under him, taxes went up 11% per capita. I led; he lagged.
Mr. Matthews: Sir, rebuttal here. Final rebuttal.
(CROSSTALK)
Mr. Romney: It's baloney. Mayor, you've got to check your facts. No taxes -- I did not increase taxes in Massachusetts. I lowered taxes, number one. Number two, the Club for Growth looked at our respect to spending record. They said my spending grew 2.2% a year. Yours grew 2.8% a year.
But, look, we're both guys that are in favor of keeping spending down and keeping taxes down. We're not far a part on that. The place we differ is on the line-item veto. I'm in favor of the line-item veto. I had it, used it 844 times. I want to see Liddy Dole's (ph) line-item veto put in place. The president's proposal to have it put in place. I'm in favor of the line-item veto. I'd have never gone to the Supreme Court and said it's unconstitutional.
Mr. Matthews: Do you believe it is?
Mr. Romney: I do not believe the line item veto is properly structured. The president, just last year, introduced a line item veto that passes constitutional muster.
Elizabeth Dole did the same thing. I'm in favor of the line item veto to make sure that the president is able to help get out pork and waste.
Washington is finally going to have to have a reduction in spending. Republicans got spending out of control.
Mr. Giuliani: You have to be honest people. And you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The line item veto is unconstitutional. You don't get to believe about it; the Supreme Court has ruled on it.
So you can bang your head up against the stone wall all you want. I am in favor of a line item veto, expect you have to do it legally. And as the mayor of New York, if I had let President Clinton take $250 million away from the people of my city illegally and unconstitutionally, I wouldn't have been much of a mayor.
So I took...
(CROSSTALK)
Mr. Giuliani: so I took President Clinton to court and I beat him. And I don't think it's a bad idea to have a Republican presidential candidate who actually has beat President Clinton at something.
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